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  • Buffs and Debuffs debunked! The definitive explanation

    I had some spare time at work today so I figured out precisely how buffs work. I made some other posts about it so I'm just going to consolidate them here in a place where people can see them.

    We know already from testing that for AoE healing the buff adds 20% of defense as healing.

    So, let's take my +5 and +5 lak and do some testing, shall we?!

    I'll give you guys the correct answer ahead of time and then show my work - here is the punchline, so to speak.

    Buffs are calculated based off of itemless stats and do not include items or other buffs. They are calculated as a flat value and then added to the old value. Upgrades, however, are calculated in. The second buff will add precisely the same amount as the first.

    First thing to test is to do heals with 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc buffs.

    Rebecca heal with x buffs
    0 buffs = 218
    1 buff = 259
    2 buffs = 300
    3 buffs = 342

    Another interesting thing to notice is that EVERY TIME the healing is increased by *exactly* 41 (well, 42 the third time but that's decimal point carryover or just the extra 285.75 armor adding up to enough defense to make it 42) If buffs were on a flat multiplication system (1.75x armor, then 1.75x that armor) the second increase would be *much* larger. But it's not!

    So, my next train of thought was to figure out HOW much defense was being added. Logically, I figured that it would be 1.75x my Rebecca's 381 defense. However, Then she would gain 285.75 defense and 57.15 healing. She's gained 41, which is much less than that.

    My next thought was that something must not be counted. Therefore, I tried neglecting her +105 defense item. This means she'd be gaining 276 x 0.75 = 207 defense. Knowing that defense provides a 20% benefit on aoe heals, it should add 41.4 healing.

    Eureka! There's your answer :P

    The fact that the second buff adds 41 healing on the dot as well verifies that what the system is doing is taking your base, itemless stat, calculating, and then adding that number every time. Having one or two or whatever buffs already does not factor in to the amount added. This also means that buffs are *additive*

    And there you have it!

    I'm not sure what the system does with decimal places at the moment. In this case it was 41.4 so even adding twice it doesn't reach another number. If it was say, 41.6, I have no idea what it would do with the decimal place without some testing. They could potentially round up to 42 and add both times for 84 total, or ignore the decimal and add 41 each time for 82 total, or even carry a hidden decimal and add 41 THEN 42 after the .6 and .6 add. We'd need more testing (also I'm referring to healing as defense by accident xD) I think it carries a hidden decimal place and then adds it as a whole once it's over 1 but I'm not sure.

    Debuffs: I'm not 100% sure of this because it hasn't been tested but I assume they work the same way.

    Let's assume Pintarus' attack was 1000. Your debuff reduced it by 40%. That's 400 attack reduced. The first debuff reduced it to 600, then 200, and then the rest of the debuffs did nothing. Of course this is assuming debuffs work how buffs do but I don't see why they wouldn't. What this means is that buffs and debuffs are additive.

    Theoretically, this means that if you apply 2x 55% armor debuffs that the target *should* be at 0 armor. Some testing to confirm would be nice though!

    If someone that actually has a 55%- armor debuff could help me test it would be great. Just take note of a skills damage (single hit skill will be easier to track) with no armor debuffs. Put up one, do a few tests with that. Put up 2, test again. IF it indeed adds like this, buff 1 should add slightly more damage than buff 2, since it's impossible to reduce armor past 0. So technically, let's say Pintarus has 1000 def. Debuff 1 reduces to by 550 to 450, while debuff 2 can only reduce from 450 to 0. So the damage difference between 0 debuffs and 1 debuff should be greater than the difference between 1 and 2.

    Can someone that has a rocket king toad test this for me please? I unfortunately don't.

    Another question left unanswered here is which buffs stack and which don't. For example Bo has a -30 and a -25% armor debuff. Can you have two of each? If so, 60%+50% = 0 armor target. If they don't stack though, then the 30% will override the 25% and only the stronger ones will count so 60% - therefore there's no need to cast his second -armor skill if you don't want to and no reason to bring multiple -armors.

    Anyway, let's keep this thread going and do more testing to figure stuff out There's still a lot we don't know.
    Last edited by Kitsel; 06-23-2014, 03:37 PM.

  • #2
    Very nice thread, good information! This should be stickied

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    • #3
      How much healing does the 50% armor debuff take off the enemy? If I add a 20% armor debuff on top of that? Trying to figure out if I can get past dungeon 68 without the recommended set-up. I do have an officer king to absorb the stuns, but I don't have a focus hero so can't shut down the two power healers in the back.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ArtNJ View Post
        How much healing does the 50% armor debuff take off the enemy? If I add a 20% armor debuff on top of that? Trying to figure out if I can get past dungeon 68 without the recommended set-up. I do have an officer king to absorb the stuns, but I don't have a focus hero so can't shut down the two power healers in the back.

        Theoretically it should work by exactly the same formula but sometimes things aren't the same for AI. You'd have to test :P It also depends on his base defense.

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        • #5
          Hmm I have heard about the thing where only two buffs/debuffs apply, but let me just share with you my own findings which appear to be a bit contradictory to this.

          There was one time when I was playing on 4x speed to clear a high level dungeon, and I brought along an enhanced (lvl 33) Ghost Sead (Def 384 with equipment, Def 294 without equipment) and a Demon Beast King that had a buff granting +50% armor for 2 turns. The amount healed by Ghost Sead with different number of armor buffs is set out below:

          - 0 +50% armor buff: 364 for 2 turns
          - 1 buff: 452 for 2 turns
          - 2 buffs: 540 for 2 turns
          - 3 buffs: 629 for 2 turns
          - 4 buffs: 717 for 2 turns
          - 5 buffs: 805 for 2 turns

          I think we can see that the above is consistent with the following formulas:

          Heal amount per turn (for 2 turns) = Base amount + {Z% X (Defense)}
          Defense = (Base Defense X Buffs) + (Defense from equipment)

          For Ghost Sead, the heal amount would be:
          Heal amount per turn (for 2 turns) = 134 + {60% X (Defense)}

          The only strange result I got is that the heal amount kept increasing even with 5 buffs.

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          • #6
            Maybe the cap is only 2 for aoe heals or something? Because I've had 5+ buffs before and it doesn't seem to change my Rebecca's healing. Come to think of it though even with armor buff my amelia has always capped at exactly 500...

            Edit: ​You may be onto something, just got my chichi's heals up to 800. Let me re-test with rebecca.

            So for sure buffs are calculated based on base amount (including upgrades, not items) and increase heals by 60% single target and 20% aoe. But we're not sure it caps at 2 anymore xD

            NEVERMIND I'm just wrong lol. Just increased my rebecca's heal to 342. I must not have been paying attention or something like that. It appears those buffs don't actually cap. My bad guys! :P This is why we have discussion. Made some edits to my OP.
            Last edited by Kitsel; 06-12-2014, 07:57 PM.

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            • #7
              So buffs actually don't cap? That is pretty ridiculous. I guess its possible to stack a crapton of damage debuffs on enemies in dungeon and laugh at their pitiful damage? Might want more than one damage debuffer now....

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              • #8
                afaik armor debuff caps at 100%

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                • Deceit
                  Deceit commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It caps at 100%, but the reduced healing still persists after the -100% mark. Same goes with buffing above 200% armor. I ran a dungeon where I had DBK and Chichi in the party, and the fight took so long that at the end, Chichi was healing for 1.2K a pop. XD

              • #9
                wow...you guys certainly have time for calculating the numbers before they disappear from the screen...
                ::::::::::::::[---^,^---]::::::::::::::
                You're only as good as your words...

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                • #10
                  Thank you for showing this calculation, having the same question in mind quite some time already.

                  Is the attack power,dexterity similar logic with defence power? as I know using hero to debuff damage the more the merrier, in the end enemy only hitting like 23 attack but no more lesser, maybe only 2 buff is effective? but then bleeding effect can show numerous stacks why is that?(maybe debuff not same with status effect I guess) correct me if I'm wrong thank you

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                  • #11
                    OFF TOPIC - can anyone explain to me how that turn based damage works? For example Fluxion Schaken: Demon's Weapon = 110% atk dmg to an enemy for 2 turns. Does it mean 110% every turn that would sum up to 220% total dmg after 2 turns or 55% each turn that would total to 110% after 2 turns?

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                    • #12
                      Originally posted by SakeBomb View Post
                      OFF TOPIC - can anyone explain to me how that turn based damage works? For example Fluxion Schaken: Demon's Weapon = 110% atk dmg to an enemy for 2 turns. Does it mean 110% every turn that would sum up to 220% total dmg after 2 turns or 55% each turn that would total to 110% after 2 turns?

                      I believe it's 110% x 2 or 220% total

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                      • inzanemada
                        inzanemada commented
                        Editing a comment
                        what if I do 110% damage then the other player uses +50% armor. does that reduce my next 110% damage? or if the other player uses [let's just assume, two evasion skills were used] 100% miss chance. does that reduce the second damage?

                        or vice versa - the other player has a defense buff, i hit him with 110% for two turns. the first hit landed with him having the buff, meaning the damage is reduced. then what if I removed his defense buff before my second damage hit? would the damage increase?

                        :P

                      • lithe333
                        lithe333 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        based on what i noticed.. seems like the damage calculation depends on

                        the attack of the attacker during the attack
                        the current defense including armor buffs
                        Last edited by lithe333; 07-11-2014, 04:18 AM.

                    • #13
                      Originally posted by Kitsel View Post
                      ...let's say Pintarus has 1000 def. Debuff 1 reduces to by 550 to 450, while debuff 2 can only reduce from 450 to 0. So the damage difference between 0 debuffs and 1 debuff should be greater than the difference between 1 and 2.
                      do you know how damage calculations work?
                      can you figure it out based on the att dmg and defense?
                      how much depends on some random number generator? :/
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                      • #14
                        Im interested in the damage calculations as well. I still have my doubts with the debuff being additive
                        Supposedly casting -40% atk debuff thrice would mean that I won't get any more damage however this is not the case. especially in TH and DG,
                        Server: Cucubita IGN: DR Guild: ACE
                        Status: Stuck on DG100

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                        • #15
                          very well said
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